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                  <text>Neil Cloud
(Southern Ute Tribal Elder)
My name is Neil Buck Cloud; I'm the NAGPRO [Native American Graves Protection]
coordinator for the Southern Ute Tribe at the current time. I was born at Towaoc, CO. At that
time the Southern Ute Tribe did not have a hospital here [Ignacio]. So all the mothers had to go
over to Towaoc to give birth; that's where a hospital was. We didn't have a hospital. A year or
two later Taylor Hospital was built; which functions as the Southern Ute Tribal Building. It's an
old building. Then, when I was born over there, I came back. We didn't have roads like this. It
used to be gravel roads. It was winter and they said they had to deliver me. They walked part of
the way, most of the way, through all that snow.
Where the current BIA building is, there used to be an old building that was made
originally out of wood. And, that burned down with all the tribal records. Finally, they built
another one right under it. There's a tree still standing there that you will notice in old pictures.
The museum currently has pictures of the Utes standing there. That was the old BIA building.
When they built the new BIA building that was in 1940 ... somewhere in that area. And,
when I was growing up, I used to play there; I remember that as a boy. We used to play, at that
time Billy Rock and I, we used to play in the foundation; that's what I remember. At that time,
our fathers were the Southern Ute Tribal Policemen. And, if you look right off north there, the
jail is still standing there: the little cement building that you see. If you look north, it's still there.
There were houses towards the south; those were the houses where our parents lived. And, there
were a few sheds (warehouses) a little bit to the west ofus, southwest. Two buildings I think it
was, or three ... huge: we used to all go to there and play.
There used to be a whole mess of sheep pelts in there. During that time the tribe had
sheep (we owned the sheep). Also, during that time, individual families had sheep and there was
a Southern Ute Sheep Association, also, which we owned together. Every spring we used to take
them up to Williams Creek and north ofVallecito Dam in that National Forest area. We had
trouble with bears, and we had to have a quota [of sheep] for the National Fore st. We had to
purchase 30,000 more. So, I don't know how many total we had, because there were several
families. But, over the following ears, we kept saying that bears killed our sheep. Finally it
added up and we had bucks. I guess they got old also, because they died. We had, I don't know
50 or 100 head of bucks, and we kept them separate.
Well, that's my experience.
During the time when I heard these stories, the Indians were still riding horses at that
time. Well, there was a store there next to that office that burned down; where the Ute Park
entrance is today. A little south of there was a warehouse. The Indian agents used to say that
Hans Aspas was the one who had it, or one of them. And, over a period oftime (when he was in
charge), the way the story goes, he used to get the wagons that were given to us by the United
States Government. Over that period he accumulated a lot of money. And, that's how Ignacio
became the little city of Ignacio. That part is just hearsay, you see. I just heard it and didn't see
it for myself I just heard the people talk about it.

�Page 2 of9

One thing is very important according to the story of how Ignacio was built. First, it was
supposed to have been built in Tiffany, CO; which is about 15 miles southeast oflgnacio. And,
something happened over there and they moved it to this area: the Pine River area. Well, there's
a slaughterhouse where the Town is supposed to be, over the hill. I've been there, there's a lot of
debris. The first one (I forget the Spanish guy's name), he was the very first guy to build a
saloon. The pieces of wood that you find are part of the foundation of that saloon. And then,
during that time, something happened. They moved to where the current Ignacio is, and he had
to move his saloon back down. That's why there are pieces of debris there; I've been there. I
don't know what condition it's in now. If you walk on over, there's a creek there. If you walk
along, there's still trash from that period. There's a big question about that: how Ignacio came
about and why they moved it. I never knew, never was told. That's why I say it is hearsay ... I
wasn't really involved. It happened before my time, way before my time, about the time when
the allotments were being created.
But, I did see the Utes riding their horses right in front of that big building that they call
the Legion Hall. Right across the corner from there was a drugstore, as I remember. And, I
remember the druggist's name: it was Britt, and I remember that because he sold ice cream. Us
little guys used to go get ice cream there. Every time we went to town that was the first place we
went to. And, right across it was the Legion Hall; it's still standing today. That's where the
Spanish people put on dances. That was the only big building and that's where they used to have
dances (right next to the police station, where the hitching post was). That's where the Utes used
to tie their horses and their wagons. There used to e a whole bunch of them where the station is
today.
Also, the Ignacio High School was built where the grade school is. It was a tall building:
two stories. That's where the Anglo kids went to school and some of the Ute kids went there,
too. I went to this one here (we had an Indian school, also). The boarding school. .. during the
early days we lived so far from the school that we were all scattered all throughout this
reservation. We didn't have no buses during those days. Some of them had to ride horseback
when they went to school. Some of the Utes went to school over towards Mesa Mountains;
which is about a good 10 or 15 miles from here.
There was another country school over there. Some of them had to suffer every winter
riding horses to get to school. And, there's another Indian school up over northeast from here,
about 15 miles out. But, there's a little country school. .. some of those people went to that one.
It was muddy and they had a rough time being out in the country. That's why the Bureau of
Indian Affairs built this Indian school.
According to my dad, who went to school here, this boarding school was ... I still
remember it; it was functioning a few years back. But, they built an additional part to it and it
got bigger. Whereas the old one was funny looking: narrow and long. It was divided: one side
was the girls' section and the other side was for the boys. There was a sign there, when it was
built, and I remember seeing it. I believe it said, '1889'; that's when my dad went to school,
when he was a little guy. They said his dad came and got home and never told them he was
putting him in school. According to his story, he just thought he was going for a ride with his
dad and he was happy. But, he left him at that boarding school and he cried. When he was over

�Page 3 of9

there, I guess he cried so much that when one of the girls got him, they calmed him down and
took care of him. He was the littlest one there. That's the way he was healthy about telling that
story; I remember that part.
'My dad did me wrong by not telling me,' he'd say. 'I'm still mad at my dad (which was
Edwin Cloud).' I remember him [Edwin Cloud], too, vaguely. He had braids, but I really didn't
know him too well. They just pointed him out and said that's my grandfather. That's how I
knew him. But, I never did know him too well, because he lived down by Spring Creek and I
lived where my mother lived ( down three miles south oflgnacio).
My mother's maiden name was Buck: Molly Buck. My grandmother was married to
Antonio Buck, Sr.; he was the son of Charlie Buck. Actually, 'Buckskin Charlie' was not his
real name. His real name was Charlie Buck. That's where the misconception comes out. Not
very many people know his real name. 'Charlie Buck' would have been his name in the Census,
if there were any when he was born.
That was way before the creation of this reservation. Well, he used to live in Colorado
Springs. That's where most of the pictures came out of; they were taken over there. But, he was
moved here. Some of the Utes didn't have no birth certificates, because they were born at home.
While he was growing up, he also served as a scout with the Fourth Cavalry. The cavalry, the
soldiers had to keep the Utes in the interior of the reservation, to isolate them (so the
Government said). He did serve with the Fourth Cavalry. (I don't know where they were
stationed). As a scout, I guess he used to kill deer for the soldiers to eat. He'd butcher them and
skin them; he'd save the hide, and right then he'd start tanning it. When the soldiers saw him
that's how his name was created: the soldiers called him 'Buckskin' and used his first name as
his last name. I guess he liked his nickname. Being a scout is king of a prestige position,
important. He felt he was an important guy, so he kept the name. I don't know how many years
he served with the soldiers, and that's how he became 'Buckskin Charlie.' Only we family
members knew his real name: Charlie Buck.
The Tribal Council, for a while, continued to claim that the family of Charlie all died off
But, there are still a lot of them living. They even have a newspaper clipping telling about his
commission in the Fourth Cavalry. Now that's not the Fort Lewis ... I don't know if that's the
same bunch. With the creation of the reservation we were moved so many times.
When my grandfather was living in Colorado Springs there was still a spring over there.
The Garden of the Gods: that's where they lived. He roamed the whole eastern Rockies, all the
way up to Boulder. He was there when the first covered wagons came across the prairie. What
they call west of Boulder, these big rocks, high hills, it's called ... they called them ... I'm mixed
up about them. Well, there's a Ute trail up there. It's a high place and that's where he was
watching the first covered wagons coming across the prairie. He had never seen anything like
that, so he waited for it ... a whole bunch of Utes waited for it. At that time, looking east you
could see way out across the prairie: 80 miles ... 100 miles out, I guess, from that high point. So,
they waited all day. Finally, it came to the foothills where the Colorado University is. And, they
came down to meet them (they were curious to meet them, I guess). While he was there he met
the wagon master and told the wagon master ... he said (well, I guess through sign language),

�Page 4 of9

'these things [wagon wheels] aren't going to make it through those steep hills (which were
mostly horse trails).' Some were almost 45 degrees steep. He told the wagon master, he said,
'this is the end of your trip, your travels. Your wagons will never make it over the hill.' 'You
might as well plan on staying here,' he told them. 'Make your home here and we'll protect you
from the enemies that come around.' There were Sioux to the north, Arapahoe and other tribes
that claim that that's their homeland. They could stay on one condition: he told the wagon
master, 'if you're going to stay here you have to build a house of wisdom (is what they called
it).' I wrote a composition about what I heard. So, that was the beginning. The 'house of
wisdom' later became the University of Colorado. So that's why it's there; it was that mutual
agreement during that first encounter. That was Charlie Buck in that area.
Let's see ... Denver was being built at that time. And, during that time there was that
militia, Colorado Militia, which was in authority. While Denver was already being built there
was another little town southeast of Colorado called Centennial. All that San Luis Valley was
nothing but creeks and was home to the beaver. And there was a trapper, a Canadian trapper I
think, that came into that area. All that San Luis Valley clear up to Nebraska (the Platte River)
was the home of the beaver. Also, according to his [Charlie Buck's] description looking east,
that whole valley was just black specks. The way he described those black specks was they
looked like the flies in the fall time. Those were the buffalo, as far as he could see. I remember
that description. That's how he described it. In the wintertime, when it gets cold, the flies have
a tendency to come into your home and land on your wall so that it's dark ... that's the way he
described it.
Also, according to that picture, Centennial was a small town. Well, during that same
period the Colorado Militia was out. The Colorado Militia was sponsored by the City of Denver.
They were, I believe ... according to the story, separate. And, they were the ones that created the
massacres in that area. Of course, in that movie it depicts that other guy, and they try to
decommission the one that was supposed to be in charge. So, there was a friction there. But,
according to the story, later they add the one that was authorized to be the commander in San
Luis Valley had a fight with the Colorado Militia commander. So, he was chased out of that
country, because he killed people in cold blood. They saw that happen right in the streets of
Denver. When a wanted Indian was walking in the streets, he shot him in the back.
That was the turning point: the pioneers didn't like the style of his torture. When the man
was trying to turn himself in and he just shot him in the back, is how he confronted him. Well,
what brought it out was in Cripple Creek they found a lot of gold.
First, that was where our reservation was big, and they discovered the gold in Cripple
Creek. Well, they said, 'move the savages out West.' So, we were rounded up and we were
moved. Our first agency was built down in Albuquerque, New Mexico. There were Spaniards
in that Santa Fe area, also the Pueblos were too close. And, the Utes being hunters and picking
berries didn't fell good being cooped up in a tight place. There was all that friction: the Pueblos
were having trouble with the Spanish, too. A lot of things were happening down in New
Mexico. The Utes didn't like it, and I guess we were moved to La Vida, back to La Vida. Well,
we were there around Trinidad; there're Ute names in that area. I guess when we was there we
were moved again, to Pagosa. Well, we were supposed to become farmers and self-supporting.

�Page 5 of 9

Okay, Pagosa Springs is a high-altitude little town. That's when the Fort Lewis was built there,
the first Fort Lewis. I believe the Fourth Cavalry, and maybe the Eighth too, that bunch ... Later I
heard the Buffalo Soldiers were attached there, too. When we were there we complained to the
government that we cannot grow food. Vegetables would rot. Besides, it was too cold for the
vegetables. So, we were moved to this area where the Pine River is.
Well, I've got to go back. When we was in the La Vida area, there was a river called
'Los Pines', which is still there today on the map. Okay, when we were moved from Pagosa to
here, this Pine River Valley, it was called 'Los Pines.' So, today we have two Los Pines Rivers.
That Spanish name followed us here; I don't know how that happened. It followed the Utes. So,
today this Pine River Valley is known as the Los Pines River, but some ofus prefer to call it
Pine River.
Well, that's when the creation oflgnacio happened, because where I live (three miles
north oflgnacio) there's that Spanish trail; it goes across my field. From Santa Fe all the way
up, it goes across Ignacio Peak right there (that's where we call Cedar Ridge). I think it follows
the railroad tracks here ... the D. &amp; R.G. [Durango &amp; Rio Grande0 that used to run through
Ignacio (it runs quite a ways close to Oxford). It goes straight west, all the way to Weasel Skin
Bridge. That's where the Spanish trail went. And then, from over there (the Weasel Skin Bridge
is located on the Animas River), on the west side of the river it goes straight north; right where
the Southern Utes are building the A-LP [Animas-La Plata Project]. Well, right where that
[Home] Depot is ... the new store ... that Wal-Mart ... right south of there, there was a highway, and
on the left side was a big rock as a marker for the Spanish trail. It went west, northwest, right
where the A-LP is being built. And, it goes all the way west. Somewhere east of there it goes
toward Delta, and then one goes south towards Towaoc. That's the way the Spanish trail went: it
goes all the way up north to Grand Junction. And, as I was saying, there was a third route that
cut west, a short cut they called it. The one that goes through Palisade, that was the short cut to
the one that went to the gold fields of California. This one over here by Mancos Creek, we
called it 'Target Tree' in the Ute language; that's what it translates to. There was only one tree.
But, the way the elders came up with that they called it 'Target Tree.' So, that's what it's called
today. Well, actually, when the Utes came through they always shot that tree. So, during that
time it had a lot of arrows stuck up in it.
When the Spanish words came to this area, the Ute language got mixed up with the
Spanish. Like 'caba' and caballo,' and some other names. So, what we're speaking here is not
Ute: it's colloquial, mixed, a hybrid language. We lost our language a long time ago. There's a
bunch ofUtes up near Ouray that still speak the original Ute language. Eddie Box, he's still
alive today, he knows some of that ... the old words. There are different words for the same
things. There are a few here who are still alive. Clifford Eagle is another one that I know who
might know some of those original Ute words. The ones over there at Ute Mountain have more
speakers. But, the language has changed; the Ute language has changed its color. Today,
according to the young generation (I listen to the radio, the Ute word of the week), parents don't
teach their kids the correct way. I was involved with the language. The real Ute language is
spoken softly. The suffix in a word is the tricky one. These words sound alike, but the suffix
changes. So, when you hear that word you have to be careful with the tail: there's a little sound
added to it.

�Page 6 of9

***
My father's name was Julius Nash Cloud. He spent most of his time at this Indian
school. And, this school during that time only went up to the sixth grade. So, he stayed here
year-round, I believe, until he got to the sixth grade. From there he had to go to seventh grade,
but there was no seventh grade school nearby. The only place there was a seventh grade was in
Santa Fe: Santa Fe Indian School, and that's where he was transferred. So, during the early years
he was so far away he had to ride a horse to come back. It wasn't as easy as today, when you
can drive a few hours to get down there. But, during that time it took weeks, maybe, just to go
the one direction. Well, he stayed there all the years. During the summer, when he didn't have
school, they used to take him to the San Luis Valley to make spending money. Over there they
used to pick beets. When he was there, that's when World War I broke out. So, during that time
he was at the right age to get drafted ... he got drafted into the Army. He never cam home: he
was too far away. But, the government made it a point for him to come home. I guess they had
the automobile then. But, the government had him come back and say good-bye to his family. I
guess he came back for a week, just to see his morn and dad because he was going. He went
overseas. That's the part I translated for him, because the Ute Museum has a story on him.
I didn't know what he experienced. I read what he wrote. Some of the things that he
described weren't really the way he described them in his report. The real thing was that the
feelings of the soldiers ... the farmer that he was with, the Anglo farmers, because he was drafted
they were all bunched together and they had never been outside of the United States. It was the
first time they had ever been in the East. And, they had that funny feeling about being moved
over the ocean. They never saw an ocean that big before. Some of them cried and some of them
didn't want to go. They were scared: they didn't know where they were going, nobody ever told
them where they were going. They were just being herded onto that big ship, like cattle. Maybe,
according to his story, it would have been all right if they were told. But, there was a vague idea
there was a war going on with Germany, and a lot of them didn't know where Germany was,
either. That's the way the soldiers were. That's why they were crying for their families. That's
not the way it is today, because we have a lot of tourists. We go touring around the country, to
see the country. In the early days it was so hard to travel, so we had to stay within our home
area, within a three-mile radius, or five mile or ten mile radius of our homes. Durango was 20
miles away and that was kind of difficult, but the D. &amp; R.G. (that little train that came through
here) took some of the people to Durango. It also went all the way around to Alamosa. That was
a big help to the families: the train. Yeah, I rode on it too, by the way. It was kind of a smooth
ride, but all you could hear was the sound of the wheels: the clink-clink. Kind of neat ... it was
better than riding on a wagon: all that rough riding. The train was real smooth, but all you could
hear was the wheels all the way to Durango. The clink-clink and then the whistle: that's what I
experienced.

***
I finished here ... that's when it was called the Ute Vocational School. It was like home to
me, because that's where I got adapted to that life. Yes, I did graduate from there. There were
Navajos here, also. There was a day school for the parents, and then during that time there was a
school bus. Some of those buses would come everyday to the school, but some ofus we stayed
there. There were no school buses that went into the areas where some ofus lived. Not like
today: now we've got a whole mess of school buses down in Ignacio. There were other kids,

�Page 7 of9

Anglo kids, who were in the same fix. They had to come the hard way: they'd walk or they rode
a horse in. Some of the lucky ones, if they could drive, had their parents bring them in everyday.
It was the same for us up here: the buses brought some of us and dropped us off at the school,
and some ofus had to stay; which was easy, because we didn't have to put up with those kinds of
hardships.
So, I just adapted to it, and that's why I say that it was my home. I got used to the
routine. Well, I don't know, it wasn't cruel like what I've been hearing on the news with the
other Indian schools in the United States that were really rough. The kids were roughly treated.
That must have been before my time. Yes, we were disciplined. The best part of growing up is
being disciplined if you can't behave, because there are rules to follow. As ling as you follow
those rules, though, you're all right.
Well, when I went to the service I had a piece of cake in the service. I went in '55; I was
drafted into the Navy. Well, I was in Boulder during that time. I got six deferments. At first it
was a police action [in Korea], but then the United States never declared war. During that period
they never declared war officially ... not like in World War II. World War II was when I was
over here and kids were disappearing. But, I didn't know there was a war with Japan; that's
where they were going. And, a lot of the Navajo kids that were here were orphans. During
World War II we had to go through their trunks. The matron was here; that's who signed as their
parents. So all their belongings, when they got killed in the South Pacific, came back here. Greg
Pinto was one that I remember; he was one of the big boys. Greg Pinto and several others never
made it back. He was killed overseas and the only thing that came back was his trunk. But, I
didn't understand those things really too well: why they [the trunks] were all coming back. That
was during World War II.
But, the United States declared war on Japan right after December 7th; that was official.
That's how I perceived it: the United States didn't declare war on another country [Korea].
There was no chance for us to go over there and fight, because we had no alibi to shoot
somebody. That's the way some ofus perceived it.
I got on the U.S.S. Conway (aircraft carrier): Seventh Fleet, 10477. That aircraft carrier
was a ship that never traveled alone. We had the whole Seventh Fleet, a whole armada; which
was like a big city on the sea. We made it as far as the tip of South America going overseas. We
got there on Christmas Day until finally we got the dispatch. Then, we had to go to the
Philippines. So, we did an about-face.
Well, I didn't exactly stay two years like I was supposed to. I came out after 18 months,
because the government said we could be dismissed early. Well, I wasn't officially out: I had to
be in the Reserves. I am classified A-1, which means I can still be called back. So, even today, I
guess if they need me, I could still get in ... in case of an emergency_ I have a friend ... a colonel
(retired), and that's what happened to him. That's how I know that the United States government
is calling people back. Well, ifwe don't have to go through all that boot camp, then those ofus
who are in good physical condition can still go back. According to our aptitude tests those who
are up there have to train the others.

�Page 8 of9

Well, with most ofus draftees (I was with a Texas Company), most ofus came out of
colleges. When we got into the regular Navy, the career sailors just hated our guts. They felt
like killing us, because we got in there and took that aptitude test for rank. For most of us we
passed it: it was a piece of cake for us, and that was they reason they didn't like us. They wanted
us out. Whereas, they had spent 16 years trying to make that same grade over and over. That
was the friction. Then, the government says if we re-enlist we'd be given so much rank, be
given so much money. It was on some of our minds. But, we would have never survived due to
the condition, because that was how they felt [the career sailors]. We didn't want to stay. We'd
rather come back home. Those ofus in college could make a living back here, not in the
military. Besides, we weren't even at war.
Now, that deal with the Marxists in the 60s, I didn't understand that too well in the
beginning. The draft-dodgers were right. I came to my senses. If you get drafted, you have to
go or spend five years in the penitentiary; which is better than feeling guilty. There was no
declaration of war behind your back. We had no justification. If the United States had declared
open war on another country, then we'd be justifiable ... have a justifiable condition to back it up.
There was no justification for it, and a lot of them got killed for nothing.
When I went in I didn't have no insurance, either. If you died at sea, which was
supposed to be hazardous duty, you got extra money. I didn't get my G.I. Bill, either. A lot of
us didn't get it. We were just there, and when some ofus got out we didn't have no insurance.
Nothing ... not even a G.I. Bill. Today you've got to be crippled 30% to get any compensation.
But even that much you can't get anything. The Agent Orange guys are creating big hospital
bills, the kids are coming out deformed, and the government won't do anything for them ... giving
them the run-around.
The military is fine all right. The Navajos, the code-talkers, make it sound like it was a
violent situation during World War II. But, there was a justification for that: the United States
declared war on Japan. Whereas in our situation, there wasn't. So, why? And, besides, we were
drafted; we didn't volunteer. That was the first time the Navy ever drafted. We still had to serve
our six years. I finally got my discharge in 1961. Well, you have to be pretty tough to get up
there on the aircraft carrier. I was in the S-1 Division, which was the backbone of the whole
Fleet. I can go anywhere: Dispersement, Personnel. .. I was in the electronics part of it. The ones
that really go through strict training are the submarine guys, because they have to know what to
do. Well, we were trained the same way. We used to operate almost all the anti-aircraft guns.
We had the '58-Dutch' anti-aircraft. I kind ofliked to operate that: the '58-Dutch.' Well, we
had the regular anti-aircraft, too. It's funny .. .ifthe man on the radar got shot, we just filled in.
That's the way it was. For loading, if one of the men went down, we just switched over and took
his place ... until we all got wiped out [laughs]. Well, it was teamwork.
I didn't have to be taught all that stuff over again, because I already learned it in the
boarding school. I already knew how to wash my clothes. That's why I say it was a piece of
cake. If one ofus messed up, we all got punished together. In the Navy, ifwe got punished, we
had to go march at two o'clock in the morning all the way up to reveille. By that time we were
so sleepy. Then, we were taught in a classroom with a screen, a projector; that's how they
lectured us. Well, I tell people, for eight weeks I was a 'dumb Indian,' an 'idiot,' and some other

�Page 9of9

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tell these people. I'm not hot0headed ... I can take it (I took a lot of them).
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I experienced the military and the boarding school, but that other stuff about Ignacio is
just hearsay; I didn't experience it myself People talked about it and I listened to them. Of
course, when I was a little guy I didn't listen. I didn't think it was really important. But today, I
would k11ow ifl had listened. I didn't do what I was supposed to ... I feel guilty. I though all the
people I k11ew and saw were all still going to be alive, forever. That's the way I perceived it. All
the people that I had contact with, I thought they were going to be around forever. I thought
everything was going to be the same. Come to find out, they're gone.

***
Interviewed by Michael G.
Miller, VISTA worker, on
January 30th, 2004.

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