7 10 216 https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/797230e24cabb64003532b4c43dc4859.mp3 45ffe75d9c2d1fa1757f3275362d583e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Voices of Ignacio Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33 minutes and 23 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Renee Morgan Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Interview; Ignacio; Colorado; Morgan, Renee; Oral Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Description An account of the resource An interview with Renee Morgan conducted by Liz Wheelock at the Ignacio Community Library in 2016. https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/823453bb2282f3b5f642cf0d48c3000c.mp3 0dc0b11810d435dc93b23112dd0f23cd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Voices of Ignacio Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 16 minutes and 55 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Richard Parry. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2023-03-20 Description An account of the resource Richard's family history in the area. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Ignacio; Colorado; Outdoor Sports; Ranching https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/198a561cec49a8dd75447660b7d4262a.jpg 2d6c39079a1d9c14d16f8c53ecb2a065 https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/505bbfab3f20f866c54f01ad1bd733a7.mp3 65e655b1b8730ba18a1d8ff1d2068ca8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Voices of Ignacio Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour, 30 minutes and 07 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rod Grove Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2016-02-25 Subject The topic of the resource Grove, Rod; Interview; Ignacio; Colorado; Southern Ute Tribe; Ute; Native American; Oral History Description An account of the resource An interview with Rod Grove conducted by Renee Morgan at the Ignacio Community Library on Thursday, February 16th, 2016. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/4c0eb724797195ffea3a2c926ef850c4.jpg f44fea20cd0593a471a46c07a71fa0be https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/b0c3f233e92202ced93f6e77cb6e4b52.mp3 a1645a3d56275b3ff2a0309cd75e5437 https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/44412f424825b90f319cf3b5073fe2b3.pdf ef58951b9ea6682912587f11bfd3dcf9 PDF Text Text Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 I am Ms. Liz Wheelock and I am conducting an interview with Rosemary Aiken for the Ignacio Oral History Project entitled “ Voices of Ignacio” at the Ignacio Community Library on Wednesday, January 27, 2016. I have with me a local member and volunteer at the library who has graciously permitted me to interview her. Please tell me your name and your date of birth and how you came to live in Ignacio, Colorado. Aiken: My name is Rosemary Aiken. I was born 6/29, 1955 and my parents relocated here with the El Paso Gas Company with my Dad's job. I was three years old that was in 1958. Wheelock: Where did you live when you moved here? Aiken: When we moved, we moved with the company, El Paso Natural Gas and they had a housing complex up on the south end of Ignacio up on the hill. The offices, Quonsets and all were all below the hill. We lived in house number seven of El Paso Camp. Only the employees of El Paso Natural Gas lived there. Wheelock: And those houses were just for this area? Aiken: Yes, they had different housing developments in other areas in New Mexico for the employees El Paso Natural Gas for the New Mexico locations. My dad was part of the Ignacio field so they located him in Ignacio with my mother and with my two brothers and my sister. Wheelock: Your family was one of the first families to live on El Paso; those houses were used just for the area. Had your father been working long for El Paso Gas? �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Aiken: No, he had probably been working for them for just a few years. I’m not exactly certain when he went to work for the company. I know he was 51 years old when he retired. He's been retired for about 30 years, for 35 years. He hadn’t worked a long time for El Paso. My grandfather was also an employee for El Paso. He worked in the Farmington office a number of years. He had gotten the jump on the job from my father then it came available for us to move up here. That's what my dad chose to do. I must mention here that I first moved up here when I was three years old. As I remember there were no paved roads there, no sidewalks and no gutters. My mother always lived in larger cities. My mother said, “No way I can live here!” My parents, both lived here and are both 87 years old. Once my mother became acquainted with the community they both fell in love with it and they're still here to this day. They've been here for the past 57 years. Wheelock: That was a long time. You went to school here. Do you remember Mrs. Morris the first grade teacher? Aiken: She is still alive and well! She retired some years back, but I think she worked for the school district for 50 some years. School is a great place to go to. I can truthfully say that when we got snow and we got lots of snow, I walked back and forth to school. My brothers used to walk me when I was 10 or smaller. As I got older, I started walking to and fro to school. I had to walk up the hill and both ways in the snow. Now, I graduated from Ignacio High School in 1973 and I raised my family here. Wheelock: So, do you have any stories, specifically or fond memories of going back to high school? �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Aiken: You know the fondest memories that I have growing up in Ignacio Campus, we called it El Paso Heights, that's what it's called now. It was called Ignacio camp basically. My neighbors got transferred out so it had different people moving. Fifty percent of us grew up there. Our fondest memory was the playground behind their houses. We had a basketball court; a concrete slab would be fill it up with water in winter. We would ice skate. We’d take our sleds and we would go down the hill where the office buildings used to be. Some of the kids were in 4-H. My brothers had carrier pigeons some twenty-three. The neighbor boys, on days, would take the pigeons out and put bands on their legs and send messages to other people outside of the Ignacio. They had all kinds of steers and I wasn't in 4H. They had pigs and steers down there. We would play hockey down in Salt Creek which runs below the hill, Rock Creek when it froze over we’d play hockey down there. I was a big tomboy, so then there were sport’s wise things I could get into which I loved. I can remember fondly getting my first little sled. I was nine or 10 years old at Christmas time. We had a lot of time off during Christmas from school. We’d slide down that hill and a lot of times my dad would entertain two groups of sleds and they would get behind his pickup and drive us around. All the neighborhood kids wanted to come. He would drive us around the camp and it was always a lot of fun as well. We did this probably till I was 10 or 12 years old. Also times back then were much easier then. We’d still go out such as after dinner. We could hardly wait to go outside to play. We would catch fireflies down in the meadow. We’d build forts and build tree houses and all kinds of things. It was a time when your parents didn't worry about you and you went out and played. You went out as soon as you could in the morning and on the weekends coming back until it was dark. As far as high school and �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 the rest of the schools, I got good grades in school. I was in the Pep Club and on the Pom-Pom drill team. I was a drum major in our band, played trumpet and French horn. We had good sports teams. We supported our teams and we took a lot of fun trips. I remember taking a trip with one of my science teachers. Mr. Bruce Bruton's, the science teacher took us on a science trip to Denver. Went to IMAX Theater. Went to Museum of Natural History. It was just really a fun time. That's just some of my fun memories of Ignacio. I got married actually when I was a senior in high school. I got married in February and graduated in May and I was just shy of eighteen and then I went to work at the casino as a waitress and then I went to work with Butch McClanahan, wrapping meat. My son Adam and my daughter Krista and I found myself in a divorce and I had to go to work and then I went to work at the bank. I have some fond memories of working at the bank when Adam was twenty-one. I started doing general ledger accounts, got moved to the teller line, worked in administration, escrow computer, and I got head bookkeeper. The bookkeeping part I did for four years then I went back to the administration line and in charge of all administrative jobs. And then I became consumer loan officer, commercial loan officer and finally, 1991 I was promoted as manager of the bank. I was managing the bank in 2006-9 and retired at age 51. We went from the Bank of the Ignacio to United Bank of Ignacio, to Norwest Bank of the Ignacio and finally to Wells Fargo Bank of Ignacio. I have fond memories when I worked at the bank and Mr. Emmett Hott had been deceased for many years. He was a cashier at the bank and he was new in town. He would ride his horse on days when days were bad. He'd get there in his vehicle drive or on his horse and stoke the fire at the little bank. It was a one-room bank at the time. �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Wheelock: Same location, just a one room bank? Aiken: Yes, when the bank was there, south of the bank was a little five and dime store. I remember buying my dad a pair of black socks on Father's Day. I paid a nickel or dime for them. Just south of that was Ute Motor Company, they did mechanical work there and there used to be gas pumps outside. Out in front, I believe it was owned by the Carlsons but I'm not quite sure. I can't remember and across from the bank there was another gas station which later became a feed store, which now is a pawnshop and next door to that was the post office, before it moved south of town in a bigger building. There used to be a bakery and a print shop down there. Then going north of the bank Mr. and Mrs. Phillips owned a little kind of like a five and dime clothing store. They sold shirts and pants and some groceries, candy. That's Bruce Phillips parents, he was my English teacher in high school but now there's a pawnshop there that Silva owns. Mrs. Morris owned another, it was kind of a dry goods store, but I could remember you could take a nickel and buy a whole bag full of candy. They had this one countertop with nothing but penny candy, five pieces for a penny for nickel or a dime. You could buy a bag of candy. Going further north there is a grocery store owned by the Lunsfords and her daughter was Donna Young. I do not know Donna's last name but it was owned by the Lunsfords and then they sold it to their son in law, Jerry Young. He owned it with Butch McClanahan and they owned and operated it for several years. Butch McClanahan bought out Jerry Young and then they renovated the building. He expanded the building and then down from their store was the SUCAP Building and there was a drugstore at the end, which was owned by the Sparks. I think David and �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Bruce, not sure they were Mr. and Mrs. They sold it and it became the French Drug Store and they carried some items but they had the best deli, hamburgers, soups and sandwiches and going down from there was the El Amigo. It was owned by the Siebels. Georgia Siebel was a beautician. I got my haircut there several times and also going down from their south, there was a place called the Black Cat. It was a bar and I think it had rooms up above. It was kinda of a motel. It was where SUCAP Building is today. They tore that down. I don't know who owned it before the SUCAP building, crossing toward the Baptist Church and you're going north, and then from there was the Quick and Handy and it was something. There beside that, and we cross the street, there used to be a gas station there. A Conoco. It was owned by Mr. Esparza. And there was a little café called Cope Café. I say it was owned by Wayne Cope. He was the coach in high school and had the best chicken fried and steaks and shakes there. There was also another gas station where the 7Eleven is. It was owned by Benny Valencia and across from street from there, coming down, where the library sets was this building that used to be a furniture store and it was also owned by Benny Valencia. And then Marlin and Marie Brown owned it. Marlin also worked for El Paso Gas. He lived up the street from us. They lived in the most northern house, which would be number one, and they owned the furniture store and sold traditional NavajoNative American jewelry. Where the chiropractor is, used to be a sports memorabilia store. It had billiard tables and had the old games... pinball games and also on the back Street from Browning you would go down south of town where Miralax is now, the Wiseman’s had a store. You would go west towards Browning there was a little grocery store and that used to be owned by Spider. They had a few groceries mainly, something like old 7-Eleven store. �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 They had chips and pops and stuff like that. Now it is been converted into someone's home. Wheelock: Did and they have a movie theater? Aiken: Actually the movie theater was right next-door, next to the locker plant, which was Butch's. They had a movie theater. We had the Buckskin Movie Theater. We had a drive-in movie theater. It was out of town, a mile or so, which is just past where the casino was, on the west side of the road. you top hill, now there is house to the west. Wheelock: I believe it’s the Boxes? Aiken: No, Chris Walker lives there and that used to be the old Buckskin Theater. It was a drive-in theater. There were a lot of good times there, going to the drive-in, and then there was a video store the Meisners owned. It was just south of the grocery store; not sure, maybe a liquor store. They might've remodeled it after burnt. I think it might be the Wells Liquor store now but they had video rentals there. They also owned Meisner Sound, the video rental south of town and they owned another liquor store just north of the library. I think it now is closed. They were the original owners when I was growing up. Wheelock: Now during that time, when you're going to school, was there a lot of intramural sports because the southern Utes had that? Did you try to be involved in that? Was there a lot of intermingling? Aiken: If there was, I am not sure. I never knew it. It was predominately Spanish, Native American and White and until I was in high school probably my junior and senior year, there was some of that. I never knew there was a �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 difference. I went to my friend’s houses. We didn't know any difference. They were just my friends. They came to my house and there was a lot of Navajo students as well. We were going to school. They would bring the Navajo students off the reservation and they lived in dormitories. Some of the dormitories were torn down. Some are now Southern Ute tribal buildings but not all. We all intermingled. We went to each other's homes. I never knew the difference. If there would be any kind of ethnic racial difference, it would be when I was in high school and when I started going out to basketball games and district games at Fort Lewis or a tournament in Denver or something like that, then you started hearing these things. I never grew up with that kind of thing. My household, my parents wouldn’t tolerate that stuff, never. Yes, there's a lot of intermingling with all the different races we didn't know any different we were just friends. Wheelock: Now, were you around when the railroad was here? Do you remember much about that? Aiken: I think that was before my time, but I remember there was a bridge south of town. I remember the buildings that were down there and I can remember when they started pulling up the railroad tracks and we'd be looking out for the railroad ties, the nails and spikes which keep the railroad ties down. As far as I understand, the railroad was there. I think I heard this from my parents, or if I actually read it. I do remember the bridge, the railroad bridge. I remember the buildings, in fact one of the buildings used to be part of the video store. I am not sure of this stuff. I heard from my parents it was there when I was younger but I do remember the bridge. It is no longer down there. Part of the train depot was next to my house. Someone bought a lot and renovated it and put it next to my house �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 where my home is, and then, in the Annex building was for the Catholic Church. One of the old buildings came from the depot. Wheelock: Then did you travel through Tiffany and La Rosa? Were you around when they built the Navajo Dam? And then they filled it. Do you know anything about that area over there? Aiken: Not much, but I do remember one of my teachers actually went there. My brother's teacher was Mrs. Nossaman. She lived out there at Arboles. She had to move from her home because when they built the Navajo Dam she had to move. It's probably under the lake somewhere now. A lot of my friends grew up there. I was a horse lover and when I was in town I never had a horse and all my friends had horses who lived near Allison or the Arboles area. So I traveled out there, playing or riding horses. As far as the history, I'm not familiar with that. Wheelock: What about the Tiffany area? Aiken: I rode horses to the Tiffany or the Arboles area but I don't know any history about that. Wheelock: You mentioned that many of the roads were not paved. Do you remember were there roads from here to Durango? Aiken: I believe those roads are paved but I'm not sure actually, you have to get with my parents about that, but the town of Ignacio, itself, had dirt roads. There were no curbs or gutters, no sidewalks. The sidewalks are wooden boards, like back, when they looked like an old Western. I don't know exactly where that stopped and when they paved �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 roads because most roads, I remember, were gravel county roads and where we rode the horses. But I can imagine that it wasn’t much. When I got here in ‘58, there were no paved roads sewers or gutters, no curbs and I member it was kinda of a big thing, but I was kinda young when they started getting the sidewalks and curbs and gutters in and the paved streets. So I would think that they came in ‘58 or 10 years later. They had paved roads but I don't know how far out or towards Bayfield and Durango they weren't paved. You'd have to talk to someone who lived here longer than I. Wheelock: Now, you lived in the edge of town, that area from down the hill is El Paso Heights, it was a camp-you called it. Was the road going out towards the dam still here or even the one going off to Farmington hill? Aiken: The hill yes, all those roads of course from Ignacio going out to Allison or Arboles, they probably went down, I would say, at least to the border of the Colorado and New Mexico. 318 didn't exist and when we first came here to Ignacio, the road that went over the dam to New Mexico and that did not come into play. Once they built the dam to New Mexico for the water people, people came up to use the facility. As far as the roads going from Allison to Arboles, they were in existence. And I believe when my parents went to Farmington, where my grandparents lived, we would have to take the road going towards Durango just passed the Williams Field Plant. There was a county road we'd go on that curve and it turns off to the west. We'd hit 550 to go to Durango and Farmington and that's how we would get to Farmington. I wished I knew that county road number. It might be five, I don't want to guess, it was just past off Highway 172 going past the Williams Field Road and you go by three or four houses �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 where there's the animal hospital on the right side, Kindness Animal Hospital. Just past that, you take a left and head down that County Road and it would connect with 550 and that's how we get to Farmington. The other roads did not exist. Wheelock: (laughs)What type of vehicle did you have at that time? Aiken: We always had a station wagon because as my mom and my dad had four kids. So we always had a station wagon. It wouldn't have seat belts. We usually had two of us get in the very back end and we had just a carpeted and flat place where we would sit. Those were fun times when we were growing up. My dad always got two weeks off for vacation. We would always go somewhere. We never went east. We always went west. We’d do all the states north and south and west of us: Washington, Oregon, California and Arizona. We’d go as far east as Oklahoma and Kansas. We had a little camp trailer and we would either stay in one of the national forests or the national parks and sometimes the KOA, if we got one, so we could take a shower. But those were always fun times growing up with my two brothers and my parents. During free time, family time, we all got with my older brothers, they got to be 15 and 16, they'd be bucking bales of hay for the farmers or my brother Archie used to work for Butch when he was 16 or 17, before he went to college. And then my brother went into the Navy. Those trips just started to be with my mom and dad and my sister and myself but we still had good times. Wheelock: Did you ever have the occasion; did you ever have vacations at Navajo? What can you remember about those? Or did you? �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Aiken: Now you know, my grandfather actually owned a boat which he had on the camp when we were growing up but, I only remember, I don't think that was Navajo. We went to Vallecito Lake but we weren't really traveling people. We were boating people. We did more camping than boating. When we took boat trips, I would say, I was 10 and 14 maybe? We would go to Vallecito. We never went anywhere down in New Mexico. I don't think Lake Powell was in existence. Vallecito is probably the only place to go, Vallecito or Lemon, I doubted you could take a powerboat on Lemon because it was so small. Wheelock: Do you remember much about Vallecito or Lemon Reservoir? Aiken: Lemon no, because we very rarely went to Lemon. Vallecito, there were very few cabins. There were very few, who would be in the campgrounds. We’d go to the North campgrounds and we’d have so much fun and have picnics with my grandma and my grandpa. We would make it three or four times a year but basically the campgrounds, there were few restaurants and places to stay but we just got together for the day and stayed all day and then we go back to Ignacio or to my grandparents in Farmington. But there weren't all the cabins that are there now. I think there was Wits End, which is a guest ranch. I think it was there the latter part, when we used to go up there or when we first went up? I don't remember that. Wheelock: Do you remember about this flood that was supposed to have occurred in Bayfield? Aiken: Oh that there, was probably... you're talking about when that happened 15 or 20 years ago? Yeah, I do �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 remember that. I remember how they had to change out the roads and bring in the big rocks because it really destroyed a lot of the roads. They were up there on the main road going to Vallecito and you could see a lot of changes. I can see them; someone who hasn't lived this long probably wouldn't notice them. A Lot of big rocks and a lot of the culverts were put in. We had the Missionary Ridge Fire and that totally destroyed so many parts of Vallecito. My grandmother used to love the big Aspen trees that were up at the end of Vallecito. We had that fire, it took out all of those aspens and now there are spots of evergreens and pine trees, Ponderosa and whatever's there. I remember explicitly in fact, they told people in the latter end, the northernmost end of Vallecito, in the fire free zone, that they had to get out so quickly. So they took their motorhomes and things. They could take that with them and put them down there by the lake. And the fires create their own tornadoes and such that they destroyed a lot of motorhomes and in things that were left down there. They were supposedly to be safe but the fire, because the fires create their own weather, it totally created whirlwinds and tornadoes that went down and destroyed things that were left there. Yes, I remember that. I can tell you when it was 10 or 15 years ago, maybe possibly 20 years ago, I guess? I can’t say. Wheelock: When the El Paso Gas came did you know a whole lot about that? Did the drillers and the townspeople intermingle? You said they ran houses up there and do you have any stories concerning that? Aiken: Now my dad came up, worked out in the fields so the drillers had already come and gone, because Chris, he would do the charts, so I believe by the time we got up there in ‘58, the real drilling already had been done. They �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 might've been doing it outside of Ignacio but I don't know, my dad was never involved in that. When we got here, the wells were already in existence. Since other people they brought, they were the ones that managed pumpers and actually were in charge of all the maintenance of the existing wells. So I don't know what the interaction was but so far as we all came and we occupied the work. It is now El Paso Heights, all those people work for the oil fields and worked for El Paso Natural Gas. It became later Ammonium Field Services but we all interacted with everybody in the town. We had people in the town who were ranchers, oil field workers and people who owned shops, had kids you know, the townspeople and then the kids that lived down in farms and ranches, they were bussed into the schools. There was only one school. They all intermingled and that Navajo students were brought in. They lived in the dorms and we intermingled with everybody else. (laughs) Wheelock: Was there time he wanted to leave? All of you wanted to leave Ignacio? Aiken: No, I had graduated from here. I raised my family here. My kids have gone off to college and they came back here. My kids and my grandkids, my great grandkids, my mom and dad, still live here. My brothers which are older than myself, one lives in Farmington, one lives in Flora Vista, and as far as wanting to go anywhere now, Ignacio is my home, it is a great place to raise my family. It was a great place for my kids to raise their family. Wheelock: It sounds wonderful! You had a wonderful life here. What lesson do you think you learned? From what lessons has your work life taught you? �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Aiken: I think my work, about what my parents taught me: good work ethics, learning to be on time at work and follow through on the job, that you have loyalty with my staff and the people in the community! Good work ethics and moral ethics, they were taught by my work as well, but I think they were instilled in me by my parents. You try to instill that in your children and your grandchildren. I think the town of Ignacio, so to say is the best well-kept secret of a community. It is because I know a lot of surrounding communities, I can say like Durango and Bayfield really look down their noses at us. I don't know what the reasons are, I'm not sure. I just think Ignacio is a great place to live and I like the camaraderie. I used to have this lady who used to work at the bank when I became manager, she used to always say, “I'm going to always support the local businesses in Ignacio because, as I know they support me.” I feel the same way, if I had to depend on our neighbor or community, I don't like to depend on people usually but we all rally around. There's something that happens in the community, if there's a fire or someone comes down with the terminal illness, they rally around them and support them. The community, if you generally live in a bigger town, you never speak to your neighbors or friends. I don't know as many people now as when I worked in the bank. There are a lot of new people coming in but there are the old-timers. I remember the names. I can put names to faces and now that I'm out of banking. I don't know as many people because my kids are not in school anymore, so I don't run into them there. I do see a lot of people as a volunteer to the community library and elderly people I usually knew. There were bank customers and some of my kids’ friends or something, but I think that would be the spark a little town has to offer. It is a tight, close-knit community and has a lot of perks because we pull together as a community. The Tribe inter mingles well �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 with the town of Ignacio and I think that everybody just gets along and pulls together as a team. Wheelock: When push comes to shove? Aiken: When push comes to shove there are some things that didn't happen in the community, but I think we learn from mistakes, and you go forward. And you don't repeat that mistake. Now when push comes to shove, we pulled together. Wheelock: What are some of things you remember that you wished hadn't occurred? Aiken: This didn't have an effect on me, but the student scene, the students that came from out of their community up here, I feel very deeply for, the Navajos who were brought from their home communities up into the dorms. They're just more friends that I had, but I do realize that they were uprooted from their home or culture, from the language and in this didn't happen in my time, but I did read about it later in books. They somehow were brought up and they were put in white people's clothing, and they can’t speak their language and that, really to me, I wish never happened. I don't know how many people in this community knew their language anymore. My children are Southern Ute and what they got from their Ute grandparents it was never spoken, the Ute side in our home. So that was lost, and I wish they knew about, at least the spoken language or understood the language. They understood the culture, the bathing and those types of things. Things that the youth culture offered. I wish they knew more of the youth side of their culture. I don't know why I can't think of a lot of things that happened in the Ignacio that were bad things. I'm sure �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 there were, but most were ironed out by the time I got to be older. The older community members, like myself, especially when I got into school, you remembered the good times. When you're old you remember when you're 5 and 15 and the way life was. You were pulled around in sleds, sliding down the big hill and to me that was a big hill, or ice-skating. I remember when the elementary school was put in. There was the pond behind the school. I remember that when it was wintertime, it froze over. We went down there and took our brooms or ice skates or snow shovels, shoveled it off, and we played hockey or we skated. I tried to do figure skating but I wasn’t good on skates, as far as doing leaps and stuff like that, now I can skate backwards but I couldn't do any of the twirls or stuff. Those are the things that bring me back and gave me the most pleasure of my back life. I don't think there were bad things going on in the community. I was either protected from, or more sheltered from that, or just didn't pay any attention to them. I have pretty much nothing but fun memories about Ignacio. Wheelock: You mentioned something about fireflies. I don't remember ever seeing fireflies? That amazes me! Aiken: Probably they were in front of you. Especially if you lived in house number three. From about house number 4 to 1 there used to be a big meadow across the street from us. As you go off the hill and there were big meadows and they were full of fireflies. We’d take our little mason jars and go pluck fireflies. We played hide and seek in those meadows during the wintertime when there was snow. Slide down the meadow in inner tubes, down the hill, but yeah the fireflies are one of my fond memories. And I can remember how we used to go to the post office, a the short distance off El Paso Hill and where you �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 live, the main road goes up there, there was such a big hill took forever to walk up and down at night. I didn’t mind walking down. Seems such a big hill! I hated walking up and I look at it as an adult and it isn’t as much. I would look off the other side going off, downward, that was a really big hill and to get to the pigeon houses that were at the bottom. 4-H kept their horses and kept their steers there. But I remember, I got a look over that hill and see if it looked is as big as it did when I was little, oh my goodness! I thought when I walked down the hill home I would never would be getting back. Looking at on it, it was fun times. It was good time screwing up in Ignacio! Wheelock: That's pretty nice. I am impressed! Is there anything you wanted to talk about that we didn't get to? Aiken: I just don't know. I'm sorry I dominated. I'm trying to remember every kind of business that used to be down in the Ignacio. I talked about George Seibel's having the beauty shop where El Amigo was now, and Copes had the Quonset huts that were there, and he did repair work. He worked on cars and on engines, lived up above and there were other businesses. I forgot to mention there was once Lunsford Furniture Store back on Browning, behind the bank and down one house. There was a beauty shop there, and in fact, the two businesses. She used to have Custom Cuts by Clara. She purchased that from her. When she went out of business Clara's been using it ever since. Wheelock: So that's just a neat little piece of history! Aiken: I think there is a large shoe repairer off Browning. It went further south and there is a house there and he was �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 incredible, and he was a boot maker and made beautiful custom boots and saddles and belts, Larry Smith. Wheelock: I don't know if I seen that. I am missing them for some time. Is he still there? He was there quite awhile? Aiken: I thought he might've passed away. He was actually up on Goddard not too far from the bank and he would go over to his residence and have a shop there. Wheelock: There’s been lots of changes in Ignacio. What do you think about the changes that we had? Good and Bad? Aiken: I think there's been really good changes in Ignacio going from dirt streets to paved streets. We really got a fantastic library. We have a fantastic grocery store. We have a nice bank. We have a nice post office and all the businesses; they've expanded and improved. We have the casino, which employs a lot of people in this town. I think we are, between the tribe and the casino, the number one employer in La Plata County. Our schools are growing. We got new, nice new schools. I wish one thing I can say, I wish there were more emphasis put on academics. I think this is all over the country. I'm just not saying the Ignacio schools, I think there needs to be more emphasis on having a good education, where like I say, it's not just here but nationally... that I just don't think system wise, there is not much put on education as there should be. It's really scary to think that the kids today, that are to be our future, don't have a better education than we had. And I think that the Chinese and Japanese and the other nations are far exceeding where we should be at. I think we still have good students and I think we have a lot of good students that are from Ignacio, who will become doctors and lawyers and bankers and professional people. �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Wheelock: They came from here? Aiken: Exactly, there's nothing wrong with the people graduating from Ignacio High School who take over their families ranches and farms. We have to have ranchers and farmers in this world because we always need a rancher or farmer, because we need to know where our food is coming from. We want our food coming from the United States and we need to support the ranchers and farmers, but I wish more emphasis was placed on education. I do know that it's not entirely the educational system. It's also part of the students, because you can take five different students and they're going to have the same class. You have your doctor and a lawyer and someone working for NASA and then you have someone there that never makes it out of their grade. It takes us all, not just the students, it takes all of this is to work, the parents and schools all working together. I just think the United States as a whole should take more emphasis based on education for today's students but it takes all of us. They said it takes a village to raise to a child. I think that's true in this case I guess. It comes down from parents and from them to the students, to the administration and many teachers. So I guess that's what I wish would happen with better education in America. Wheelock: Well thank you! Is there anything else that you'd like to talk about which we did not talk about? Aiken: I don't believe so. I'd like to say that I'm very proud of this library and I'm so happy to be part of this community. There are a lot of great businesses in here but this library has offered me a lot. When I retired I became a hermit but through the library and taking art classes, volunteering �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 one day a week, the library offers such incredible opportunities for different diverse activities. Someone wants to knit or crochet, someone wants to belong to a book club or someone once wants to learn how to cook or sew, they are so diverse they offer so much for so many. I wish that more people were committed to it (library). I hate to admit it, but I'd left work for a couple years and I never put or set foot in this library or came in the library. But I would just like to say, that I wish more people were involved. I guess we should get out there and say we are great library with many classes, stop by and check out all the opportunities. But I for one, am very grateful for the library and what it offers, for the staff and this community and what it has offered. There is nothing derogatory to say about the library. There's nothing derogatory about the library at all. Wheelock: I agree with you wholeheartedly and on that note, thank you so much! Aiken: Thank you, I hope I helped a little bit and thank you! Transcribed by: Burt Baldwin, April 21, 2016 [Track 1 ends; track 2 begins] My name is Liz Wheelock and I conducting an interview for the Ignacio Community Library’s Oral History Project entitled: “Voices of Ignacio” at the Ignacio Community Library on Tuesday, February 23, 2016. This is a continuation of Rosemary Aiken's earlier transcript data of Wednesday January 27, 2016. Today, Rosemary is going to give us an account of the Ignacio Bank robbery. �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Wheelock: So, Rose would you please tell us about the bank robbery? Aiken: This story is true and based on the facts as I remember them. It was high noon on a hot, summer day, Monday July 3, 1989. The bank lobby was crowded with customers at the Norwest Bank in Ignacio, Colorado. There was quite a buzz of conversation and you could hear a baby crying. I was a loan officer at that time and had left my desk on the south side of the bank and went behind the teller line to our documentation vault. As I was leaving the vault, I noticed the teller to the left of the vault motioning me to stay inside. I backed into the vault and a minute later a teller walked past the door. A masked man had her by the arm and was holding a pistol to her back! She was carrying a sack and I saw her empty the cash from the teller drawer into that sack. The robber was wearing a floppy, brown hat and a bandana covered his face. They walked back past the vault and I lost sight of them. The thoughts that went through my mind were swift. My first thought was to become invisible so he couldn’t see and shoot me. Then I thought, “No, it’s a joke. It’s not really happening.” Then I thought, “I wonder if I could sneak up behind him and hit him over the head with our check protector or one of the metal boxes containing our money orders and cashier's checks. That thought left as quickly as it appeared. I remained in the vault for a few more minutes and I noticed the deadly quiet that had overcome the bank. The baby had even stopped crying. The robber again passed in from of the vault door, but this time he had a different teller. I later found out he had asked the first teller if she had a car and she wisely �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 said, “No.” That was not so lucky for the second teller who he grabbed. He told her to get her keys. The only male employee, also a loan officer, got up from his desk and walked across the lobby and started talking to the robber. The robber kept shouting at him to shut up and go sit down. He finally told the employee, “If you don’t want blood all over the bank, you’ll sit down and shut up.” As stated before, I finally saw the bank robber and the teller pass in front of the vault door. They headed out the side entrance of the bank. When they were out on the sidewalk the robber asked the teller where her car was. At that point the teller realized she had grabbed her teller window keys and not her car keys. They could not re-enter through the side door because it locks when it is closed. The front door was also locked by a bank employee as soon as they left the bank. There was an old Dodge pickup idling outside where the robber and teller had exited and he forced the older couple out and forced the teller into the truck. Morbid curiosity had made a couple of us look out the side door and we saw them race away and head south on highway 172. We later realized how stupid we were to look. He could have decided to start shooting at us! The Ignacio Police Department is just a half block north of the bank. We later learned that one of a police officer had started running down the street to the bank, pistol in hand, tripped and fell and the loaded pistol went flying down the sidewalk. Much later we laughed at how that was something Barney Fife would have done on the Andy Griffith Show. Before the bank was locked a male customer had left the bank and got into his truck. When �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 the robber sped past heading south, he followed, a safe distance behind. When the robber got to the top of the hill by the Ignacio Cemetery, he slowed down and ordered the teller out. She later told me she was shaking so hard she couldn’t find the door handle. The robber then reached across her, opened the door and pushed her out. The bank customer, who was following them, picked her up and took her back to the bank. The first responder, after the robbery went out over the radio, was a Southern Ute Tribal Wildlife officer. He came upon the abandoned truck just a mile or so past where the robber had dumped the teller. The robber was running across an open field to the east of Highway 172. The officer took aim, but because another vehicle was heading towards Ignacio, and was in the line of fire, chose not to fire his gun and put others in jeopardy. Several minutes later there was an exchange of gunfire and another officer said all he could remember was bullets whizzing past his head. The robber was not captured that day, but was apprehended sometime later in Abiquiu, New Mexico. He was brought back to La Plata County, stood trial and was sentenced and placed in the Colorado State Penitentiary. The male loan officer kept telling me after the robbery and before the robber was captured, that he recognized the voice, but just couldn’t place it. I guess it was kind of like watching an animated movie and not being able to place the voice until after the final credits are being rolled. We also found out that customers had recognized �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 the hat the robber was wearing as it belonged to his wife and she always wore it around town. About nine years later, the teller that was abducted in the robbery was contacted by the FBI and was told the robber was being released. I am now the manager of the bank, so I called my FBI contact and he confirmed that the robber was getting out of prison. He also told me the robber could not come into the bank or contact any bank employees. I have been told he still lives in the Ignacio area. Another bank robbery occurred several years later. But, that story will have to be told at another time, by another employee who was actually there, because I was retired by then. And I’d like to tell you a few fun facts or two fun facts about the bank… When I first started working at the bank our shipment of cash from the Federal Reserve Bank in Denver was mailed from them to our post office. The postmaster would call us to let us know now it was there. Two bank officers would walk across the post office, while a third employee would watch from the inside of the bank. Now an armored vehicle with armed guards delivers the cash from the Federal Reserve. I guess, since it is a federal offense to rob the post office, that’s why it was originally shipped by mail. They figured it was the safest way to get to the bank. Also, after the robbery, the entire lobby area was remodeled. The teller line was moved to the south side of the bank, next to the cash vault and totally enclosed in walls and locked doors. If you would like to pursue this robbery story, I’m sure the Durango Herald has archived all of what happened during the robbery, what happened during the trial and what happened after he was released. �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Transcribed by: Liz Wheelock, February 2016 Aiken: Finally, after the robbery occurred the entire Bank was remodeled. Wheelock: I like the way you were talking about the house. You recognized the house and it belonged to his wife? Aiken: His wife used to come into our bank and into the grocery store and other places around town. Wheelock: How did she get the house, the person who robbed the bank? Aiken: The person who robbed the bank, his wife owned the house. She was not around when the bank robbery occurred but obviously he had borrowed the house from her and were still married. I was also told that when he was sent to prison his wife contacted content the tellers and apologized for the robbery and what had happened during the bank robbery. Wheelock: Well, she didn't know anything about it? Aiken: We are unaware of any of the facts. She was never invited or never went to trial for anything. He acted alone. Wheelock: Now do they have kids? Aiken: They had a son, which was a stepson to the bank robber. �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Wheelock: Did they go to school here? Did anybody know them. Aiken: Everybody knew they had lived here for years. The bank that is Wells Fargo, it was Norwest Bank at in those days, they too banked there! They had done their jobs around town, odds and ends. They were seen at the grocery, the post office, and a actually built a bay window for my parents about six months or year before the robbery took place. It was nicely done! We were personally satisfied with it even after thirty years!(laughs) Wheelock: Well thank you so much for giving us the story and it was quite entertaining. I enjoyed listening. Aiken: Well you're welcome, and I like to say the facts as I remember them. I have contacted a few employees who are still at the bank or worked at the bank. They pretty much also agreed with my recollection of the robbery as I remembered it. Wheelock: We were talking earlier about our feelings, how you felt during what was happening, you were have feelings about the robbery, and we were talking about one of the employees, and how it would affect you. What are some of the feelings you have about this? Aiken: I know one of the tellers was probably around 27 years old who had to go from window to window to collect the money with a gun in her back. She has recovered completely from it, but for years another teller who has since passed away, never really recovered from it. She was in around her 50s at the time. I told you how I felt, first I thought, “Oh my goodness seems like they’re playing a joke or trick on us. I'm going to hide here since I can be as invisible as I can.” But then I’m thinking, I'm hiding to get �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 away from them this can’t be a joke, how can I go out of here and help. Can I sneak up on behind them and drop something on his head? And that was all ridiculous. I could not do any of those things but stay in this vault. I was motioned by the other tellers to stay there. Actually it was July 3rd and I was getting married on the 15th of July, so I was wondering if I would ever live to see my wedding day. My husband worked for an oil field company and he'd come in later in the afternoon and the bank was surrounded by yellow tape and it really concerned him. He couldn't get through to anybody in the bank staff, because we weren't answering the phones by that time all. The officers were in there. We had some of the officers from the bank coming in from Durango as the manager at that time was off on vacation. He always took the Fourth of July off and he wasn't even there. Wheelock: Were you the acting manager? Aiken: Well now, I was just a loan officer there. I was in charge only with the advisory stuff in the bank, just all the advisory aspects. I don't think anybody was really in charge, that's why we called the officers from Durango, and they came out right after the robber. They separated all the employees and told them not to talk to each other because they wanted an actual account of what we heard, what we saw, because everybody has their concepts. They are different and they didn’t want us to talk amongst ourselves. All that's exactly what I remembered but you might not remember it all. They separated all the employees, all the customers that had statements, they called in; each one, so they could start piecing together what happened. They saw everybody who was in the bank at the time of the robbery. �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Wheelock: That would be pretty horrendous. Right now, you can be laughing about it but when you are there under the circumstances it was horrendous! Aiken: It was very scary! So many these thoughts go through your mind when you see your life passing before you, I could see these images. I can't say my life passed before me, but I did see all of these images, from going to hide, or I'm going to be the hero, or might drop something on his head, or I'm going to capture him. But different people react differently to different things. I don't know how I would've reacted. I don't know how I would react if I was the teller who had the gun in my back or the teller who got taken out of town. I'm just glad I wasn't in that situation. I'm glad I don't know how it felt, because I know what it was like to be hiding in the vault, you know! Wheelock: Did you talk to her and how she felt, the one that was captured? Aiken: I just know that she was traumatized and she was shaking so hard she couldn’t even get the door open. She couldn't even find the door and open it when he told her to get out. She said, “When he came across the bench seat to open the truck door and push me out, I was just so horrified. I didn't know what he was going to do to me at that point!” And then afterwards, I know she still had some bitter feelings about the bank and the bank robbery. I don't know how I would feel if I was under the circumstances. She passed away two years later, not from the robbery but from other things. I still remember the day she passed away, she still had hard feelings about that bank robbery. Wheelock: In what ways do you think she felt this? �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Aiken: Well, I think she blamed the bank because of the robbery. She blamed the other teller because of the robbery. It was not one's fault, wasn’t the bank's fault, wasn't the employees’ fault. The one teller who said she didn't have a car, she could’ve been taken, or would've been probably the one taken. You know, like I said, I think things happen the way they are supposed to happen. Wheelock: You said that she was older? Aiken: I think she was older, the original teller. The one that was around 27 was taking the money from the teller windows. She was about in her 50s I would say. I was at the time 32 or 34 at time, but I didn't have the gun in my back or was going in the stolen truck with the bank robber. I don't know how they felt! I wasn't in that position. Wheelock: I'm sure he was driving recklessly, causing problems? Aiken: I think his main objective, I'm not the fugitive, I'm not the one to say, he was getting out of town. And he didn't want her with him and that's why he let her off. Maybe you think, I'm not the fugitive, I'm trying to think things he was probably thinking. I think she might've just been an easier way for him to get away, and once he got out of town, he let her out. Someone at the bank at the time followed him and he brought her back to the bank. They dismissed both tellers and told them to go home. And they both had counseling. Anyone who felt that they needed counseling got it. I think the two tellers had at least two weeks of counseling. Wheelock: So you need something like that! �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Aiken: Yes, you need to talk it out! It was not, in any way shape or form funny, I know I put some “ha ha” moments in at the times. They were not “ha ha” moments in retrospect. Something seems funny now but while it was happening it was tragic! It was horrific! And nothing like that ever happened since that occurred. Another bank robbing, as I understand was an individual that robbed the bank but he didn't have any type of weapon. He only robbed one teller and was in and out very quickly. I just hope nothing like that ever happens again, not in this little town, like this issue you here or read in the paper, in the big cities, but in town like Ignacio, it just is not something you think whatever happen. Wheelock: That story is like the cowboy times when riding horses, maybe even during the “Roaring 20s” sort of? Aiken: He had the brown floppy hat. He had a pistol and the date was near the Fourth of July. Someone must be playing a joke on us. It turned out not to be a joke at all, but something that we all live through, thank goodness, and it all made us more wary about our surroundings and to watch more closely when you're working at the bank, in the morning and evenings and even when you’ve entered the bank in the morning. Wheelock: And I would think it would give you more awareness to look at the person and to look at their facial expression and what they would be wearing, if you ever had to point out someone and you had to do something like this again, it would be in your mind. Aiken: I would think you'd hope that the people who still were at the bank learned to be more thoughtful when looking at �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 someone and pick up on something, may recognize something, because you never know when you went to the bank early in the morning, or to work, you never knew if he was a customer of the bank. He's been in and out of our bank many times but even the loan officer had talked to him. “The bank robber shouted to sit down. I keep recognizing that voice.” He later told me after the bank robbery, after the bank robber was picked up and at the trial, he said, “I still cannot remember when he walked into the bank.” I remember he said, “He was looking over at me because he walked in the foyer and is across the loan officer’s desk but I had seen him so many times.” I don't remember if I looked up. I actually saw him, and if he had a mask in place or did I see him, because you'd been there so many times. Got it in his mind, he just stored what he had remembered after the fact, he recognized that voice, “I recognized that voice but it wasn’t until he was picked up and sent to the Colorado State penitentiary! I didn't remember.” We knew who he was all along. My goodness, I knew the voice in the back of my mind and could not place the voice at the time. Wheelock: Because he, (loan officer) was feeling hostility and violence in that situation and other one was when he was (the voice) just a member of the community, a member of the bank. Aiken: One was just a memory of a customer and how the customer looked from a service level instead of someone coming up and telling you to sit down and shut up! And it makes a big difference in what you recollect and how well you recollected! Wheelock: Thank you so much for your wonderful stories! �Voices of Ignacio Interviewee: Rosemary Aiken Interviewer: Liz Wheelock Date: January 27, 2016 Aiken: Thank you! [End of transcription] Transcribed by: Burt Baldwin, April 28, 2016 Audit edit by: Renee Morgan, August 3, 2016 Final edit by: Renee Morgan, � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Voices of Ignacio Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rosemary Aiken Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2018-04-28 Subject The topic of the resource Interview; Transcript; Ignacio, Colorado; Aiken, Rosemary Description An account of the resource The transcript of an interview with Rosemary Aiken conducted by Liz Wheelock at the Ignacio Community Library on Wednesday, January 27th, 2016. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/93dd794a914947822f71e3da0120e636.jpg bdc3ccf9f770b0e3e688ceaf9a89888f https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/5f4bb358a276627646fd8a201243ee8f.mp3 0817234eafaa9463bf28c4db7f52cfa2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Voices of Ignacio Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 53 minutes and 46 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Russell Box Sr. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/</a> Subject The topic of the resource Box, Russell, Sr.; Interview; Ignacio; Colorado; Southern Ute Tribe; Ute; Native American Art Description An account of the resource An interview with Russell Box Sr. conducted by Joshua Salyers at the Ignacio Community Library on Saturday, November 12th, 2016. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2016-11-12 https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/48da76a0276587a7a0529ea19161ac57.mp3 8bebf80008cc30844e79f88afc46a4d8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Voices of Ignacio Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 49 minutes and 45 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sylvia Valdez Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Interview; Ignacio; Colorado; Southern Ute Tribe; Ute; Native American; Valdez, Sylvia T., 1926-2018 Description An account of the resource An interview with Sylvia Valdez conducted by Tony Corona at the Ignacio Community Library on Saturday, January 14th, 2016. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/78100176c51d2eb09016a4ed559fd244.jpg ab0ec233e7e5b3c9036c71112f5c53fe https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/62a6f8f117239c549abdf4898dc470a8.mp3 cebc7a3b05fe97d2c8bf983a792e1f85 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Voices of Ignacio Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59 minutes and 29 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tina Martinez Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2016-05-18 Subject The topic of the resource Interview; Ignacio; Colorado; Martinez, Benestina Lucero "Tina", 1944-2017 Description An account of the resource An interview with Tina Martinez conducted by Liz Wheelock at the Ignacio Community Library on Wednesday, May 18th, 2016. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/e377a6cf52507775e409983dfe8925cb.mp3 40178502e04d078bad683f3be89df64b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Voices of Ignacio Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 11 minutes and 24 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Yvonne Lucero Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2023-07-20 Subject The topic of the resource Ignacio HeadStart; Ignacio; Colorado; Youth Description An account of the resource Yvonne discusses the history of the local headstart and its impacts. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/21e0206ab32b31f42dc260ff991d8666.pdf 7ed3a8e6a3563be07e6e570767e84a23 PDF Text Text Voices of Ignacio Oral History Project Interview with Harold (Bud) Schaaf Part One – Date Unknown Conducted by Judy Bundy Transcript by Daniel Frauenhoff – 2025 �Preface: ​ The following interview was conducted by Judy Bundy with Mr. Harold (Bud) Schaaf at an unknown location on an unknown date. Mr. Schaaf discusses his time spent working on the Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad, first on the narrow-gauge lines between Alamosa, Chama, Durango, Silverton, and Farmington, and later on the mainline out of Grand Junction. The transcript is compiled from two separate clips, which have been edited together, and are presumed to have been recorded around the same time. Both audio files start and end abruptly without any sort of introductory or concluding statements. Contents: [0:00] – Introduction [1:00] – Common Types of Railroad Cargo [1:42] – Loading Sheep at Chama [2:46] – Hauling Coal from Monero [3:29] – Stolen Journal Box Packing [5:00] – Fighting the Weeds and Running Out of Sand [6:02] – A Hotbox at Arboles [7:06] – Myron Henry and the Bondad Derailment [9:31] – A Switching Incident at Farmington [10:53] – Mel Schaaf’s Farmington Story [12:15] – Oddities at Navajo and the Peach Orchard Boar [13:10] – The Navajo Canyon Boulder [14:06] – First Time Firing with Bill Holt [16:24] – Training Firemen in the Bradshaw Years [17:00] – Durango’s Diesel Switcher [17:45] – Working the Mainline out of Grand Junction and A Bad Wreck [21:22] – The Grandview Wreck [22:40] – More Mainline Horror Stories [25:20] – Hobo Killed for a Bottle of Wine [25:47] – Throwing the Kids Candy at La Boca [26:35] – Working on the Set of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid [27:20] – Frank Green and the German Brown [30:49] – End of Recording �[0:00] – Introduction Bundy: Okay, why don’t we start again with you telling me your name. Schaaf: My name is Harold Schaaf, or Bud, whatever they want to call me depending on ‘em. Bundy: Okay, we were talking about you working on the railroad. Schaaf: Yes, ma’am. Bundy: And you worked on the railroad from ‘63 to roughly ‘90 or ‘92, or something? Schaaf: Yea, I got out of the service in ‘59 and so, well, these dates are fictitious cause I’m not really sure what they were. [laughter] Bundy: Okay, that’s fine. Do you remember – if you started in ’63 – when they were shipping things like turkeys from Allison? Schaaf: No, that was long before my time. [1:00] – Common Types of Railroad Cargo Bundy: What kind of stuff did you carry? Schaaf: Once in a while we’d get a carload of lumber from Weidman Sawmill, but that was very [rare]. We didn’t get anything out of Durango, it was primarily all empties that came out of Farmington – oil field stuff. We’d pick up and bring the empties out of Farmington and take ‘em to Chama. Then the Alamosa crew would take our empties over the mountain and we’d bring more loads back. It was pipe, drilling mud, and basically oil field stuff. [1:42] – Loading sheep at Chama Bundy: So you didn’t carry agricultural stuff? Schaaf: No, [but] I do remember one time many years ago. We had stock cars, double-deckers, [and] we’d put sheep in ‘em mostly. I do remember watching or helping when we were loading some sheep. But that’s been so long ago I don’t know whether they were sheep or dogs. [laughter] Bundy: That was here, or that was in Ignacio? �Schaaf: Yea, it was on this line. I think it was over in Chama when they were doing it. We didn’t pick up anything along here [line between Durango and Chama]. Our [consist] was basically what we had when we left. [2:46] – Hauling Coal from Monero Schaaf: Well, now [that] I say we didn’t, we would get them [cars at] Monero. I don’t know if you know where Monero is at? Monero is over on the other side of Lumberton – [the track] goes up a pretty steep grade [there] – and before you go up to Willow Creek. We’d pick up coal for Chama, you know, the coal mine is there and something to load the coal. [So we’d add] a car or two and take it into Chama so they could have it for the crews going back over to Alamosa. That’s primarily what we picked up. [3:29] – Stolen Journal Box Packing Schaaf: Now, when you had a bunch of empties – ballast cars is what they were, they’d open in the middle and drop rocks in on the tracks, ballast is what they called it. One time, they sent us over – and we were going over to Chama anyway – [but] there was about eight or ten cars. I think it was in Lumberton. We stopped to get ‘em and I had a look. The bearings on those cars – I think they were babbitt bearings – had packing [is what] they called it. It wasn’t cotton, it was like strings all wadded together. You poked that down into where the bearing was and pour oil in it and that’s what they [the cars] run on. I looked down and the packing was gone on one car, and I looked at ‘em [again], every bit of packing [was gone] so we couldn’t move ‘em at all. The Indians had pulled it out and [since it was] oil soaked [they] used it to start fires. So we left them [cars] there. And I don’t know who got out next, but they had to come back out and repack them to even move them. That’s all ancient stuff, you know. [5:00] – Fighting the Weeds and Running Out of Sand Schaaf: It was a hard job going from Durango to Chama, especially in the latter years, which I got into a lot. Our biggest problem was weeds. Bundy: Really? Schaaf: Yes. The weeds [would] get tall, they didn’t spray ‘em or nothing. When the wind [was] blowing it would blow ‘em over the tracks and it was just like grease on the tracks. [So] we would continually – we had a sand dome on the engine of course – but we’d run out of sand after �awhile. [I’d] have to hike [to] find a farmhouse that had a phone and call to have ‘em bring you out some more sand. Because we were helpless without sand. And that happened all the time in those latter days because they knew they were gonna abandon [so] they let the weeds go. The worst part was coming right out of Durango up Bocea Hill, where the track comes upgrade. [We were] slipping [and] trying to get traction all the way up there. Run out of sand. [6:02] – A Hotbox at Arboles Schaaf: Probably the last trip [unclear] we went over to Chama. We didn’t have any loads I think it was all empties. We get to what’s now Navajo Lake, but the lake might’ve been in then too, I’m not sure. I happened to look up on the engine and I see smoke. Well, that’s the bearings on them engines. We didn’t have any walkie-talkies or anything, [it was] all hand signals. But I did have a valve in the caboose so I could stop it. So I stopped the train and went up there and there was a hot box on the engine. We couldn’t do a thing about it, we had to have help. So I hiked up to find a telephone. *Recording cuts out and returns abruptly at a different section* [7:06] – Myron Henry and the Bondad Derailment Schaaf: I don’t know if you know what a doghouse is? On the back of those engines, right where they put the water in, they had what we called a doghouse. The head brakeman rode in that doghouse and the conductor and rear brakeman rode on the caboose. I was in the doghouse [and we were] right down there where the railroad crossed the highway [550] below Bondad Hill. Why, an axle broke under the tender [and] down it went tearing [up] ties and [everything else]. Scared me to death. Anyway, we had a guy working up in the roundhouse and Leonard Winkle was his name. He was a good hand. He got another axle [that] they had in the roundhouse and come out and jacked that damn train up and put a new axle in it. And away we went to Farmington. Well, in them days, while we were sitting in the caboose waiting to have the axel put in, that was considered our rest time. They don’t let ‘em do that no more. So we rested there and then we went to Farmington. [The] conductor was Myron Henry was his name. He’s gone now. He was just too one-hundred percent, just [unclear]. When this happened, I hiked over to Bondad – I think it was [Bonds?] Ranch over there – and they let me use the phone. I told them what we had done and they said, “If you guys can get that done go to Farmington, get what you can get quick and come back.” Well, we went to Farmington [and] by then it was getting dark. Myron Henry was the conductor and I told him �what they told me, said, “You just get whatever you can get and gone.” Well, he had to get every one of ‘em you know. [9:31] – A Switching Incident at Farmington Schaaf: I don’t suppose you know what a wye is, but it’s where you turn the train. The tail of the wye in Farmington was right where the hospital is now. [Big bank?] went out and you’d shove your train up on it, throw a switch, and go down the other way, throw [another] switch, and you’d turn ya around. Well, we had cars stacked in there too. [It was] dark and [to operate the] couplings on those engines you’d pull a handle, and you had to make sure that that pin dropped. Well, Dennis Cummins was on top of the cars and I pulled the pin on him. I heard the engineer give me a little toot and a look [unclear] and there go the cars. Well, we got ‘em stopped but we had one on the ground, clear out off the end of the wye settin’ right straight in the mud. So we cut away from that and then got that done. They came down and brought another [unclear] to pull that thing back on is what they did. But it was always a nightmare like that. [10:53] – Mel Schaaf’s Farmington Story Schaaf: My uncle [Mel Schaaf] worked down there one time and the wye – on the tail of the wye – down there would hold twelve cars. Then – that dang thing – the end of the rail dropped right into the street. [So] my uncle was the conductor and he had a brakeman right there with him and they had a hold of fourteen cars. The brakeman told Mel, he said, “Mel, that’ll only hold twelve cars.” He [Mel] said “I know what I’m doing, it’ll hold fourteen.” Well, he shoved fourteen out and brought twelve back cause two of ‘em fell out in the middle of the road. And the patrolman [came over and] said, “Hey, what are you gonna do with them cars in the middle of the road?” [laughter] Farmington was always an adventure, all the time. Bundy: Do you remember when they quit running the train altogether around here? Schaaf: No, I don’t remember what the dates were or anything. When you left Durango you had no radio communication. It was all work in the dark, find a way to get something done. [12:15] – Oddities at Navajo and the Peach Orchard Boar Schaaf: One time they – do you know where Gato is, Cat Creek? Well, there was a store there that Felix Lucero owned. Five, six miles away was a little place called Navajo – it’s probably not there anymore – but it was up on a little bank there and there was four or five houses. It looked like you was kind of going through a ditch when you [trails off]. There was a guy who’d been �shell shocked, or something, in the First World War. He’d mix dung in a can and throw it on the train when we went by. [laughter] He was nuttier than a peach orchard boar. [13:10] – The Navajo Canyon Boulder Schaaf: I wasn’t on this train, but [there] was a curve right there [near Navajo]. [The train] come around that curve and there was a rock as big as the engine fallen right in the middle of the tracks. They run that engine right up under it [unclear]. It didn’t kill anybody, nobody got hurt, but it was an awful mess. I went out on the work train to help clean it up [and] try to get that engine back [off?] the ground. They build the track around that rock rather than try to blow it up. But there was always, always something. We’d have an adventure somewhere or you’d go on the ground, which is derailed. [14:06] – First Time Firing with Bill Holt Schaaf: Coming down through here [near Ignacio] – now this is a horror story kinda. My uncle, being an engine watchman, was in the [Durango] roundhouse. They were talking and said they needed a fireman really bad to go to Chama. I’d never fired an engine in my life. So they said, “Well, why don’t you go up and get Bud, he’s up there in that trailer, let him go.” I had no experience, I didn’t know nothing. So they come and ask me, “Would you fire that train to Chama?” I said “I don’t know a thing about it.” But they said, “At least you can shovel coal.” So, I said “I’ll go.” I was with a guy named Bill Holt and Bill was the engineer. All I could do was shovel coal and it takes a lot to shovel coal, you need it and you don’t, cause I had no idea what I was doing. We got right here, in the middle of Ignacio or a little bit east, [and] he stopped the train. I said, “What are you doing?” He said, “You don’t know a damn thing about being a fireman.” I said, “I told you that.” “Well,” he says, “I’m not gonna go. I’m gonna set here.” I said, “You just go ahead and set here, I don’t care cause I never [unintelligible].” So we set there about ten minutes [until], “Ah, hell,” he said, “I’ll try to teach ya something.” So we left and by the time we got to Chama he’d told me what to do and tried to teach me something. Then I was able to go to Chama and fire back. There’s more to being a fireman than shoveling coal, you got to keep water in the boiler and all kinds of things. I didn’t know anything, that’s what I told him. I said, “Bill I don’t know nothin, I’ve never fired an engine in my life.” But then it got to where I could fire ‘em. Its just an art, you have to learn some of that stuff. [16:24] – Training Firemen in the Bradshaw Years �Schaaf: In fact, the last year [before] I retired they asked me if I’d go to Durango – I’d moved to Cortez – and teach them young guys how to fire those engines, you know, just instruct ‘em on how to fire those engines up to Silverton. So I worked and Bradshaw owned it then and I showed ‘em everything that I knew. Did that and then no more, I was done. [17:00] – Durango’s Diesel Switcher Bundy: When did they switch to diesel? Schaaf: They never switched to diesel. They did have a diesel switcher in the yard that come from Alaska, I think. But it was just for switching cars in the yard. Sometimes Bradshaw and them used it up in Silverton once or twice, but I was never involved in that one. I just happened to be in the right place – or the wrong place – at the right time to be able to get into all this [cause] its all gone [now]. I [faded?] out about the time they did. [17:45] – Working the Mainline out of Grand Junction and A Bad Wreck Schaaf: Then I went over to the mainline in Grand Junction and spent thirty years over there on the railroad. I’ve had some really bad experiences. The company had decided to do away with the caboose and then they were gonna get rid of the brakeman. So they offered us a buyout. Well, I put it there on the counter at the house, [but] I couldn’t bring myself to take that buyout. So they sent me as a brakeman up to Minturn. [I was] asleep in the [B&B?] over there, it was a hotel. A guy came in and said, “Bud wake up, they just had a big wreck over on the Denver side.” See one side went to Pueblo and the other to Denver. He said that [Ed West?], [it] killed him and [Slatts? Bid?] both. They come in on – you’re probably not familiar with block signals. Well, [they were] controlled just like you would a streetlight. Anyway, it was called a block and could be five miles long or something. Down in that country – off that mountain there – it was raining like a son-of-a-gun. They got a green block, which said that the track was clear ahead of ‘em. They went in there and after they got into that block a huge boulder rolled right onto the top of them tracks. They come around and they hit that boulder. They had about three units, and Slats was on the back unit, [since] we didn’t have cabooses then. He got cold and he went up in the second unit, but he didn’t have a radio. So he went up to get Ed West and said, “Let me have your walkie talkie. I got cold.” We’d have to have some measure of communication. When they come around and hit that [rock] the second unit [went] straight off into the river a quarter of a mile. The first one went off and the second engine [went] clear over the top of the first one – they had about 10,000 tons behind ‘em, you know – and it rolled. The lead engine had the fireman, the engineer, and the conductor. [In] the first roll, a tie killed Ed West. They rolled down and hung up on the ledge and it was dark and everything was confusing. �[Slats?], his engine rolled all the way to the bottom and they had to cut him out of the wreck. But they told me all that and I went home and signed the papers. It was dangerous up there on that mountain like that. [21:22] – The Grandview Wreck Schaaf: My cousin was married to Paul Mayer. My uncle [Mel] – his [Paul’s] father in law – worked on the railroad there too. They were coming down Bocea Hill. After you leave up there [by] Elmore’s store it was steep down to the bottom where they had hospital [rooms?] Raymond [Murray?] was the conductor and my uncle was the brakeman. They went into emergency – anytime you’d break an air hose or something it’d automatically stop the train – and they sat there for thirty minutes [until] my uncle said, “There’s something wrong up there, I’m gonna hike up there and see what’s wrong.” He got up there [and] the lead engine was right down in the gully and the second was pulled in two. But the lead engine was turned over. He said, “Where’s Paul?” [He was] under the wreckage. It took four hours for that coroner to get out and pronounce him dead. So there [were] a lot of things [that] happened and I’ve been into many of ‘em. [22:40] – More Mainline Horror Stories Schaaf: [This is] one of the worst ones I was in. I’d marked off on vacation – we got thirty day’s vacation – and we were packing to go to Alaska. The phone rang, it was the dispatcher in Denver. He said, “Bud, I’m desperate. I need a conductor.” “Well,” I said, “I’m marked off on vacation.” He said, “If you’ll [just] take that train to Denver, we’ll dead head you home and extend your vacation.” So I can do that, because that paid about $500 just to go over there. We didn’t have a caboose then. There was Johnny [McKelly?] and me, and a fireman, and there was four of us. We come up on the slow track, [it was] about twenty miles an hour on the fifty mile an hour track. You had to pick up and then shut down. It was level ground up there and there was a ranch there, this train track cut this ranch in two. Section house was over on one side and the section men lived in it, but I don’t think they were there then. As we [came] up there I was just talking to one of my brakeman and the engineer said, “Bud that looked like a kid in the tracks.” And all I could think of was a kid coming out of one of them section houses. I said, “Are you sure?” “Well,” he said, “I think I’m sure, what do you want me to do?” I said, “Stop the train right now.” So he stopped the train and I walked up one side of the train [while] my brakeman walked up the other side. We got close to the rear end of the train and I saw a shirt there. I said, “Oh, then that’s what he seen.” And I started to turn around and I seen a head. [gasps] This was a young guy had been riding on top of one of them great, big, high �autoracks and the overhead wires knocked him off and he went right down in the tracks. He was just cut into pieces. I just sat down and cried, I tell ya. That was the worst thing I ever witnessed. I had to call the coroner and wait for the coroner to come and they determined that he was just riding [on top] and he fell down in between the [rails]. Looked like he was about sixteen years old. [25:20] – Hobo Killed for a Bottle of Wine Schaaf: On the mainline I’ve seen them [hobos] get to fighting over a bottle of wine on them cars they’re riding. One throwed the other off up at Rifle [and] broke his neck. There was just all kinds of [stuff going on?]. But this here was a different challenge down here [referring to Durango to Chama line]. At the very least you had a radio [on the mainline]. You didn’t have nothing here. [25:47] – Throwing the Kids Candy at La Boca Schaaf: But I remember – after all these years you kinda forget some things – but I do remember La Boca. You know where La Boca is down there? Well, the track went through there and climbed back up on that mesa. We’d go through and it was split and there was houses on both sides of the tracks. There were little kids out there that would put pennies on the tracks. Bundy: I used to do that. Schaaf: Yea, and we always had candy on the caboose, throw the kids candy. But it was an adventure. An adventure that a lot of people don’t get, you know. I was in about all of those things. [26:35] – Working on the Set of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid Schaaf: I worked on Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid over here, you know where that was filmed? Right over the hill from Oxford. I seen ‘em blow up the car both times, first time was up at Needleton, going to Silverton, and the second time was out here at Oxford. Everyday at noon they’d bring big catering trucks out there – steak, anything you wanted to eat. And it was fun. When you watch ‘em, they do it over and over again [and] you think, “This [movie] ain’t gonna be worth a damn.” But when they put it together it was, that was one of the best movies. [27:20] – Frank Green and the German Brown �Schaaf: There was a little incident there that happened too, and I love this. Our boss, [the] big boss out of Grand Junction, come over when they were making this movie. He was Frank Green and Frank loved to fish. We crossed the Florida there and started up that small hill where they filmed [over] that way. It had some water in the Florida, but not very much. Frank said, “Bud, I seen some fish down in there.” I said, “There might be a few mud-suckers down there.” “No, no!” he said, “they weren’t, bring your fishing pole tomorrow.” “Oh, okay,” [I said]. [So] I came in the next day with a can of worms and my fishing pole. And my uncle said, “Bud you’re not gonna leave this train.” But they weren’t moving it or nothing and Frank Green – he was boss – said, “Yea, we’re gonna leave, just around the corner, we’re gonna go fishing for a little bit.” Well, we went down there and I tried this for him and everything. There [was] just a little [water?], like there is now, nothing. [But] pretty quick I looked under the bank and there was a German Brown about sixteen inches long. I [just] reached in and got him and throwed him out on the bank. But Frank Green, I’m telling you. I caught one on the line and they were all nice fish, you know. I didn’t think that little ‘crick [had] them. But pretty quick I could hear Frank Green down there screaming, “Bud, come down here, come down here quick!” So I went down to where he was at and there was a big ole’ cottonwood growing right on the banks of the Florida. The water had washed out under the roots and it was just about [ready] to fall over. Down in them roots was a twenty-four inch German Brown. Well, I put that dern worm right on his head and he wouldn’t take it. So Frank said, “I know what I’m gonna do.” They’d just rode that car up and they had some dynamite wire up there, a little thin [wire]. He said, “Run up and get some of that dynamite wire.” So I got the dynamite wire – it was just a quarter mile up there – come down, and we took my pole and tied one end of that wire to the [unclear] and fed it through the other end and made a loop. “Now,” he said, “catch that fish.” Well, I was sittin on a root there and I fed the fishing pole down there and slipped that noose over that fish and chocked it up – I had him. I pulled him up and then he fell out in my lap. Then Frank Green jumped in my lap. “Well,” I thought, “he’s gonna drown me.” We gave [the fish] to Paul Newman and Robert Redford for their dinner. We had a lot of good adventures, but this railroad here was hard work. That’s just all it was, was a lot of hard work, especially on the end of everything. After sixty years you forget so many dates, everything, you know. [30:49] – End of Recording � https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/7f97c14b2a0e07dfa1d54c3e5dbb0ef7.mp3 6115fd73c4c45441a8e8598de7d91bc4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Voices of Ignacio Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) Part 1: 30 minutes and 49 seconds Part 2: 2 hours, 22 minutes, and 51 seconds Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bundy, Judy; Frauenhoff, Daniel; Wheeler, Travis Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Schaaf, Harold (Bud) Location The location of the interview Ignacio, Colorado Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interviews with Harold (Bud) Schaaf Description An account of the resource Two installments of interviews with Mr. Harold (Bud) Schaaf primarily regarding his time working on the D&RGW railroad. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound; Text Subject The topic of the resource Schaaf, Harold; Oral Interview Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2025-04-19 https://voicesofignacio.cvlcollections.org/files/original/f6e6e8b4561ace20399e5da64057a933.pdf 7ed01eb79358a8859bf30db280617216 PDF Text Text JACK & ANNETTA (Burch) FROST "I was born May 27, 1910," Jack states, "north of the Southern Ute agency just above Oscar Slrain's place. My father was a Northern Ute named Moav and my mother was Maria Frost, a Southern Ute. Many of the Utes, like my father, used to have only one name. I had an older sister, Mamie and a younger brother, Curry, but both are now deceased. My parents were living in a tepee when I was born. When I was about four years old, we moved into a one room frame house four miles south of Bayfield on the west side of the river. My father was a good farmer. He raised wheat and oats and hay. He plowed with horses and a walking plow and taught me to plow as soon as I was old enough. We were very proud when he bought his first riding plow. The Allen Day School was one and a half miles away across the river. I got to ride a horse to school, which made it easy to ford the river. After fourth grade the school closed and I was sent to Towaoc the next year. My dad got sick and that was the end of school for me. I helped with the farm work at home full time until I married Annetta Burch. My father often told me stories about how the Northern Utes used to live. He said they never stayed in one place too long. They liked to camp and travel and move about the country, hunting game and picking pinon nuts and berries. They roamed from Grand Junction to Meeker to Vernal and to Moon Lake. They only went lo Ft. Duchesne to pick up their rations. He came with a group of Northern Utes to visit here and met and married my mother. After they were married, he never went back to Utah except for visits. Whenever he got restless or lonely, he hitched up his horses and buggy and went to see his people. When I was still a young man, I went to Utah on horseback to visit my dad's people. It took me 10 days to reach Myton, Utah (near Ft. Duchesne) going through Cortez, Monticello, Moab and Green River. Coming back I rode through Grand Junction, Montrose and Silverton lo Ignacio in 9 days. I married Annetta Burch in 1927, when I was 26 years old." Annetta was born February 2, 1913. When her mother, Ada Burch, died in 1915, Annetta's grandparents, Steve and Ruth Burch took her to raise, along with two other grand-daughters, Essie Kent and Cora Jefferson. "We lived in an adobe house," Annetta says, "just a short walk north of the Allen Day School. My grandfather was a farmer. He raised turkeys and rabbits for sale, but his real interest was thoroughbred race horses. He raised beautiful horses, some of which he raced and others he sold. We traveled everywhere within a hundred miles of Ignacio to race and to attend horse sales. I remember a trip to Ridgeway. My grandparents hitched up the wagon, loaded their camp supplies and headed north into the mountains. My job was to sit in the back of the wagon to hold the reins of the race horses and keep them calm. Grandfather allowed five days to reach Ridgeway, a very slow pace, so the horses would not become too tired to race. The trip was a lot of fun. We'd watch the beautiful country go by and cook out on the open fire. I was older than Essie and Cora and loved to tease and frighten them. Grandfather often told us stories, some of them scary ones as we rode along and as we sat around the camp fire in the evenings. After we had heard one of these stories it was very easy to scare the other girls, especially Essie because she was the youngest. I sometimes got spanked for this. At the races there was a lot of noise and excitement. People attended for the fun of seeing one another as much as for 54 �~ ~ --i ' ' 'l the races. After the races there was always a lot of horse trading before the long trip home." J J "I attended Allen Day School. That was where I first met Jack Frost. At that time the Utes didn't know about most of the holidays, but we were taught about Christmas at school. I learned Twas the Night Before Christmas well enough to give it at a program. The teacher even took me to recite it at Bayfield." Jack interrupted at this point to say, "She had a good memory but I always beat her at the spelling bees. " ) J ) ' ) '1 ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) J ) ) J Jack and Annetta were married in 1937. They have 9 children. Dorothy is the oldest, then Clement, Ray, Dixie, Darlene, Donna, Byron, Ronnie and Debbie, Most of the children still live near Ignacio, but Ray is in Tucson, Byron is in Washington and Debbie is attending College at Missoula, Montana. For many years the Frosts have lived on a farm just north of the place where Annetta was raised. At first they made their living almost entirely by farming. "We milked 5 Jersey cows, earning $15.00 per week selling the cream. We had 300 chickens and traded the eggs for groceries. It was not all work. We both loved horses. When Annetta was still with her grandparents, she was forbidden to ride the race horses, but she sometimes sneaked the jockey saddle on one of the fast ones and went for a wild ride, "My interest," Jack recalls ''was just as strong. During the 1940's, I traveled with a local Cowboy's Polo Team. One of the horses I rode was a big help. He learned to kick the ball and sometimes made a score. I never got to play basketball or football, but I played baseball every Sunday on a team sponsored by the B.I.A." Involvement with the business of the Tribe has always been important to the Frosts. Annetta served on the Education Committee during the 1950's, Jack has served on the Adoption Committee and has been a member of the Southern Ute Tribal Council, Jack has worked at many jobs to supplement his family income (at the John Deere Agency, at the Headstart, as a night-watchman, etc., but his heart and Annetta's heart have always been on the farm and the land of their fathers . .) Shelby Smith -- Taken November,1979 _J J J .J J .J J J ~ .J J J J J J 55 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Shelby Smith Interviews Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-NC/1.0/?language=en Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1973-1980 Subject The topic of the resource Ignacio; Southwest Colorado Description An account of the resource Collection of biographies, predominantly of residents from the Ignacio Senior Center, based on interviews conducted by Shelby Smith from approximately 1973 to 1980. The abridged interviews were originally published as individual entries in The Thoughtful Years newsletter, published by the Ignacio Senior Center, beginning in 1973. They were later published as a whole in Smith's book: Oral Histories of the Southern Pine River Valley, from which the original scans in this collection have been derived. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, Shelby Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jack Frost and Annetta (Burch) Frost Biography Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1979-11 Subject The topic of the resource Frost, Jack; Frost, Annetta (Burch); Ignacio, Colorado; Southwest Colorado Description An account of the resource Biography of Jack Frost and Annetta (Burch) Frost based on an interview conducted by Shelby Smith. Originally included in the November, 1979 issue of "The Thoughtful Years" newsletter published by the Ignacio Senior Center. Later included in the book "Oral Histories of the Southern Pine River Valley" by Shelby Smith. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Frost, Jack; Frost, Annetta (Burch) Extent The size or duration of the resource. 2 pages Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NKC/1.0/ Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, Shelby